BlackFor30
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Ancient Tones and Modern Voices: West African Heritage Through Art and Music w/Lamine Sonko
What if the ancient rhythms of West Africa could heal both body and soul? In this episode, we sit down with cultural educator and artist Lamine Sonko to unravel the rich tapestry of West African heritage. Rooted in the guewel culture keepers and the royal warrior lineage of the Korings, Lamine's family history offers a profound perspective on the role of Guewels as guardians of sacred knowledge and history.
We discuss the heroic legacy of Ma'am Seng Seng, and the sacred seven drum tones bestowed by the sea spirit. These tones have a profound connection with the cosmos that transcends time. Lamine also challenges the Eurocentric lens often imposed on African art and instruments, drawing parallels with other civilisations’ reverence for their forefathers, and emphasising the universal importance of honoring one's roots.
We also spotlight the ambitious 13.12 project, which decodes ancient African knowledge through art, music, film, and theatre. This initiative not only showcases the fusion of Kora and classical music but also delves into the Guewel tradition's philosophical and spiritual concepts of life, death, and consciousness. By collaborating with Melbourne University and other academic partners, Lamin stresses the importance of preserving pre-colonial African history amidst modern advancements.
This episode is a compelling call to action for Africans to document and cherish their cultural heritage, ensuring that these rich narratives remain accessible for future generations. Tune in for an enlightening discourse that promises to deepen your connection with nature and ancestral roots.
Host:
Fungai Mutsiwa
Guest:
Lamine Sonko
BlackFor30 is a place for exploring Pan-African theory and praxis through discourse. Send us your thoughts and questions @blackfor30 or via email at admin@blackfor30.com.
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In guild traditions, you should experience death before the final death comes.
Speaker 2:Okay, and how do I do that? And how do you?
Speaker 1:do that is to strip off everything that is unnatural that we take on and think is part of us. I have a dream today. Is it too much to ask you to grant us human dignity? Who taught you to hate the texture of your hair? Who taught you to hate the color of your skin to such extent that you bleach? For so many, many years, we were told that only white people were beautiful.
Speaker 2:You're afraid that if you give us equal ground, that we will match you and we will override you.
Speaker 1:Black is beautiful, Greenhood. Say it out loud we're free Greenhood that we will match you and we will override you. Black is beautiful, Free. Say it loud water free.
Speaker 2:Free, which means don't forget who you are or where you came from. Welcome to Black for 30. Welcome to Black for 30. Thank you for coming through and joining us in another discussion on Black for 30. And, of course, before the episode begins, we just need to observe 15 seconds of just being quiet, just so you know you can wrap up whatever it is you're doing, and then we can fully engross ourselves in this discussion to come. So the 15 seconds starts now.
Speaker 2:Welcome to another episode of Black for 30. And, as usual, I am your host, fungai. Today we're exploring the cultural and historical significance of traditions and heritage, with a focus on West African music, and I want to take this opportunity to explore perspectives from West Africa and the importance of preserving Indigenous knowledge. So, through our guest's work, we'll touch on the cultural insights from the Greer tradition, which helps us understand the philosophy of life and death, and the spiritual significance of the Saba drum in Senegal, and several other pieces of work. But don't want to give too much out, would love to give the floor to the man himself so he can introduce himself.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much, Fanguy. I'm very happy to have this opportunity to have a discourse about topics you just mentioned For the listeners out there. My name is Lamin Sonko. I come from Senegal, West Africa, and I've been living here in Melbourne, Australia, for the past 20 years. In my practice, I draw on cultural wisdom to create interdisciplinary and multisensory arts experiences through film, music and theatre, and I'm also a cultural educator, as I run an organisation called the Knowing Project, where I use our ancient knowledge systems and design education programmes for schools to try and educate the youngsters about West African history from our own perspective. I'm also a director of 1312 Project, which is a multi-art form organization or project that brings together cultural elders, producers, academics and musicians to create works that are promoted by, let's say, African perspective ways of knowing or indigenous ways of knowing. That's who I am.
Speaker 2:In summary, and we'll definitely get to delve into some of that. But before we actually get into your work, I kind of figured it would be a good starting point. If you know, we went back in the history all the way back to the kabul empire and I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right, if it's kabul or kabul. Yeah, kabul, yes, yeah, right. And so, as far as I understand, the empire was spread across mali, guinea-bissau, senegal and andia and the Sing Sing clan was one of the most prominent warrior clans, if not the prominent warrior clan around that time, and they were basically known for exceptional military powers and they played a significant role within the Empire's expansion and defense rate. And you are from the Sing sing clan, if I'm correct, that's right. Um, so can you share more about the, the legacy of the empire and, uh, your clan as well?
Speaker 1:yeah, um, I come from a gil family. Uh, gables are known as culture keepers and is the word the gewel means Geryot. So we hear a lot of people call us Geryot and that word. It was given to us by the colonizers, the French, who described us that way. So traditionally we are called gewel and gewel means to bring people together in a circle. It's like that circular existence of bringing people, mirroring that from the cosmos as the sun, the moon and so forth. So gewels, in my heritage, as a gewel, our duty is to be the keepers and communicators of history, sacred knowledge, rituals and so forth.
Speaker 1:So that's from my mother's side and the Gewal people. You find them in Dakar, Senegal, or you find them all over Senegal, but my mother's tribe is the Lebu, Serir and Wolof tribes of Senegal, who are in the north of Senegal, and my dad comes from the south of Senegal, from the Mandinko tribes, and they are the corings of Kabul. That dated back around the 13th century in Senegal, West Africa, which is the extension of the Mali Empire, the Mali Manding Empire, and to just give you a context, Mandingos are around 30 million Mandingos around West Africa, so it was one of the biggest empires in West Africa, stretching out all the way down, the chance to grow between those two worlds. You know because from my father's side they come from a royal family, the warrior family, and my mother's side she come from the Gewal family, which are the culture keepers.
Speaker 1:So the contrast of those two really helped me learn some amazing knowledge systems. And I was actually. I had the privilege that both my parents were in the arts in Senegal, because my father was the director of the National Drum and Dance Theatre of Senegal for the past 33 years and my mother, umisen, was known as the first female dancer, professional dancer from Senegal, and that was in the 60s. She used to travel with the National Drum and Dance Company of Senegal, touring all over the world around six times, touring all over the world promoting Senegalese culture or African culture in general. So, yeah, that's my background and that's more what informs a lot of the information I use in my work is my Khorin background and my Gival background, especially the Gival background, as the keepers of ancient knowledge and tradition.
Speaker 2:Man, and to what you said, it's such a dope position to have been in terms of growing up, uh, not only having the experience of both those uh cultures coming together, but, you know, also then being in the arts, because, as I'm learning personally, you know um, my interpretation of art in general, I think, was more westernized, in the sense of how I used to perceive it as something that's for the elite and for the exclusive, whereas I've gotten to appreciate a whole lot more how our art, a big part of it, I think, is still tied to traditional practices. You know so, as you're learning about art, whether it's visual, whether it's music, whatever type it is, you're also learning about yourself and your people. You know that's right. So, speaking of that's right um, so, speaking off that right, like so, in in zimbabwe, we have totems, um, I'm not sure if it's if it's similar in senegal, but like so, we have totems and each one has um, a dedicated poem which expresses the, the traits and values of people who bear those totems.
Speaker 2:Right, um, and totems are basically like symbols, um, and they're usually in the form of um animals. You know so, for me, um, my totem is moya, which is the heart, and it's, it's um, yeah, um and it's um, it's. For some it would be like the lion, for example, or fish eagle, it depends, but they all depict our lineage. So I can basically then trace back to where I come from. Do you have something similar in either the Guell or Korean clan in terms of genealogy told through song?
Speaker 1:That's right, it definitely exists, similar to what you just described. In Senegal we have those totems embedded in some of the rhythmic chants we play, called bak. Bak is like what you just said before. Through bak, girls would communicate or recite family song lines, I would say to tell the historical, genealogical existence of a family or a community. And for example, there is a very famous Sabar Bak that says what I just said to you has also a rhythmic phrase.
Speaker 1:But if I play that here, or if I say that to you, I'm just talking to you, but if I play it on my sabadrum, the sound travels to the next village. And that phrase is saying if a snake bites you, you'll think of death. Whether you're alive or dead, you'll be thinking of death as your last thought. You know what I'm saying. So that freedom itself talks about animals such as snake. So whoever you know is out there, know how to deal with snake venoms or because the animal totem is a snake, then they'll come and help that person in need, you know. And if they can't do that, they have to also come and be present to make sure that that snake is protected, so the anger of the humans won't destroy the animal. So you know what I mean. So then we'll go to traditional cultural keepers or nature carers and they can maybe judge how the encounter happened.
Speaker 1:So those things are embedded in rhythms we play and those rhythms are dated back for thousands of years, but it's still in practice in Senegal and you still hear those rhythms every day when you're walking on the street or when you go to ritual ceremonies. So yeah, it's another way of preserving these ancient ways of communicating and it's also a reminder of how important or how interconnected we are with nature, which I like to call this ancient African cosmovision or Senegalese cosmovision. It's a way of life that connects each individual with nature, the spiritual world and the cosmos, and those three are something that you have to embody in you and make sure that you can practice those knowledge systems or those ways of life in your everyday existence. So, again, going back to what you were saying, those fundamental ways of teaching us about connection with our environment is deeply embedded in the works of the Gewal people of Senegal.
Speaker 2:So, how would that work in the context of today, right? So I understand how there's obviously rhythms that have been carried on for generations, right? That speak to on for generations, right? That speak to old tales or old wisdom and old knowledge. So, is looking at it from an evolutionary standpoint, do the messages of the drum, or do the rhythms of the drum change to speak a new or different message too?
Speaker 1:Well, that's the problem. I guess, with the development of how Africa becomes today, the role of the girls becomes less and less in the center of our everyday life, which is unfortunate, I would say, because it's just another way. They kind of design a bridge between us and the past and they also, those rhythms, are there to remind us the voice of our ancestors and their mindset of how to live in today's world. And I guess, the development or the evolution of what Africa becomes today that's a very interesting question you just asked there, because I guess, through development, we lose a lot of ancient and traditional practices and it's important today to try and create music that speaks to Africans and those who are outside of Africa, create music that speak to Africans and those who are outside of Africa. But I think it's also very important for us to keep those ancient languages, because those books, as you said before, all the genealogical elements and information that they hold, it's like having a library and you don't want to set your library on fire because things are now accessible online.
Speaker 1:So I guess, that's the type of example I could share out there to show that, no matter how we want to move forward and develop as Africans, I think it's very important to take our way of thinking, our viewpoint and our cosmovision to that development Exactly. So, in a simple term, it's like thinking African you know what I mean to develop your worldview Instead of thinking another knowledge system that may be accessible to you and trying to speak African through that knowledge system. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because you know, in that example you've got it the wrong way around, right? Yeah, it's like you start from the center and go outwards. That's right. So you know, speaking to the whole notion of genealogy, right? So I'm a descendant of M of moringa, who's my ancestral spirit. So my people trace back to the rajji empire, which was founded around the late 17th century. I understand mami sing sing faye, I think, to resemble something similar to the people of the Kabu Empire. So do you have a tale of, I guess, his heroics and deeds? That reflects your reverence for him.
Speaker 1:Yes, I would say Mam Seng Seng. He's known as what we call the Mbat Gewal of Ndakaru. Ndakaru is the traditional name of Dakar, which is now called the capital of Senegal, is the name of the capital of Senegal, and our ancestors are the custodian of that place, are the custodian of that place. So it used to be 12 tribes that occupied that whole region of Dakar, senegal, where the city is built today, and those 12 tribes were the 12 tribes of the Libu people and through the work of Sheikh Ante Job, an amazing Senegalese scholar academic out there, who is the Senegalese scholar academic out there? Who's the Senegalese University? The Senegalese University is named after Sheikh Andrew Yoch and in his work on Egyptology he talks about how the Lebu people migrated from Egypt down to West Africa and when they were doing that, they also took their knowledge with them, which again goes with that number 12 that I just mentioned. The 12 tribes that left Egypt and the 12 tribes of the Libu clan in Senegal has an amazing or very similarity in their way of living, which is that itself is another conversation that I won't go deep because it's a rabbit hole, but what I'm trying to say there is, because that's how Senegal was governed at the time from an African perspective.
Speaker 1:Those tribes, those 12 tribes, each of those tribes had their own gewel who keeps their knowledge and also communicates their knowledge. You know who are the preservers and the communicators of knowledge? And Ma'am Seng Seng above he was the number one gewel in all of those twelve tribes. He wasn't chosen by the rulers at the time, he was chosen by the spirit, mam Degdao. And in Senegal, if you go there and you talk about Ddegdaor, everybody knows that is the spirit of the sea, it's the sea spirit, and we have a few islands in Senegal and each of those islands is occupied by one water deity or spiritual deity that those Libu people go there to share their offerings.
Speaker 1:So Mam Ndegdaul was the spirit of the sea who met with Mam Seng Seng one day, and this is a very old story that we still get told by elders to remind us where the sound of the drums come from. Because when Mam Degdaul met with Ma'am Seng Seng, he whispered to his ear the seven drum tones, which is called Ran Tatin, bin Bach, che Tok. It's the seven drum tones that Ma'am Seng Seng brought back to the community and through those seven drum tones we create rhythms. Rhythms were created to communicate with the spiritual world or the underworld or the sea spirits and so forth. And still today Ma'am Seng Seng is honored or his lineage is honored through a back. We play for them.
Speaker 1:It's like a rhythmic pattern that says, whenever you hear dramas in town play, that it's because someone from the Seng Seng clan just walked up and it's a way to remind that person of their family lineage and remind everyone there that spirits and us live in harmony in the African cosmovision. So those are just one story to just kind of put out there but to show you that Ma'am, who created all these sabba rhythms to do with Ndop. Ndop is known as the spiritual healing ceremony that happens in Senegal and these rhythms that I'm mentioning are used in Ndop ceremony. And all of that stories happened because we were blessed to have someone like Mom Seng Seng having that connection with spirits that speak through him and he was translating those informations through rhythm to the community.
Speaker 2:That's a really dope story. Yeah, and you know, for me me, it's been quite interesting. You know, as I've been reading up on our history just how spiritual we were. You know, regardless of what part of the continent you go to, that element of spirituality has existed. You know, and I I also see it funny how you know, when you kind of twist that a little bit and you look at it in the sense of how you know, our spirituality, you know, during the period of colonialism was obviously seen, as you know, savage, savage or backward, right, but really it's ultimately the same thing as how you know, whether it's Asian or European history, they'll talk about their founding fathers, you know, or the forefathers of, you know, greek civilization or whatever it is. It's the same thing, right? We just call it something that's different because ultimately, what they revere or look up to are people who came before them, who set up these foundations for their civilizations. And it's the same thing for us, right, our spirits for us is it's the connection that we have with people who came before us.
Speaker 2:And, um, our job is to, you know, inherit that, but then carry it forward too. At least that's what, that's what I think. You know, this is a perfect opportunity to you know, get into the 1312 project right Before we get into the details of the project in itself. One of the things I was curious about is, you know, speaking from a personal experience like I, often find prefixes like black, this or afro that to be limiting, you know, as as they're used to frame our art through the lens of usually those who either don't understand or don't respect our cultures. You know, for example, I've come across people calling the quarter, uh, an african harp, you know, but you never hear of anyone calling the harp a european quarter, right?
Speaker 2:so these descriptors tend to be irrelevant to the context and reflect a refusal, I would say, to appreciate our art in its own terms, implying that it can only be understood from a Eurocentric perspective. Is this something that you find yourself having to navigate?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, because, to be honest, that's why I come up with the project 1312 and call it also 1312. Because I, like you said, many of my other projects were called Afro this or African that, and African this and that and that and you get, you know, you put in a box where that's how all African things should look or sound like. That's why I was like that's kind of limiting to my inspiration, it's kind of limiting to the information that I embody, and it's also I needed a platform to create something, and that's how 1312 come about. And 1312 is a sacred number that goes with that cosmovision. I was telling you early on Because the number 1312 in Senegalese sacred numerology, it represents the star Sirius. Ah, okay, right, so Sirius holds the equivalence of 1312 in the way they measure it. And when I asked some of the elders to guide me through what they mean by that, because I was like you know how did they come up with that? You know they didn't have any rockets to get to the cosmos up there.
Speaker 1:You know what do they mean? You know, talk me through the numbers in details. And then they come up with this amazing way of showing me what it meant, amazing way of showing me what it meant. And they told me hey, our calendar as Africans was based on the 13 lunar cycle, which is totally different to how Africans measure times. Today. It takes 13 times. The moon will just come new moon and new moon 13 times in the year. And same thing with the sun Earth orbit around the sun and it takes 12 months for that to happen, which is what's accepted by modern calendar. So 1312 is me bringing that lunar calendar forth forward and then have the other calendar to follow.
Speaker 1:And again, science is proving it. Because, as I just said to you, you know. And again science is proving it because, as I just said to you, you know, the 13 lunar cycles, you know, to 12 months of Earth rotating is something that we cannot change, is there and ancestors knew that. And because they knew that will never change, they say let us base our calendar on that. So then, when our ancestors, our you know off-brings, gets here, if they can't find any writing, at least the cosmos is there as something they can mirror so the deep, you know meaning of 1312, this is just top of the iceberg I'm sharing with you. Is a lot more in there, but to just give you a context of what the number stands for. And then because it has a connection to Star Series. It also has a connection with Senegal Because through research I came across that if you look at the doggone people of West Africa, they have a festival that happens every 60 years and that festival is them following the orbitation of Siris you know what I mean Going around and coming back to them so it takes someone alive.
Speaker 1:You know like you have to be very lucky to make it to that festival, you know, and that festival is like awakening type celebration. So all of those things is within this 1312 project and I was like this is a lot of information for me to share and I think art only won't be enough. This 1312 project and I was like this is a lot of information for me to share and I think art only won't be enough. That's why 1312 as a project brings together artists, producers, academics, cultural elders, musicians to come together and bring all those multidisciplinary platforms to try and decode all this ancient knowledge and try and share it in different mediums, and we also conduct research that promotes African ways of knowing, indigenous ways of knowing indigenous ways of knowing and also promoting this cosmovision for us Africans to say to the world hey look, this is how we view the world and that needs to be put into account. So that's what 1312 is about, and so far it's been an amazing journey because I get to meet a lot of people, work with different academics from different universities and we also have deliverables we put in place to try and invite people to experience this knowledge system we're having a conversation on and I do that through music.
Speaker 1:We compose music that are based on the numerology of ancient Africa and those bucks that I was telling you before, all those hidden languages in drums. So this music is like a guided navigation to help you navigate through that ancient sound world. Then I do the same with film as well, because to do the research I was also meeting with cultural elders from the Lebu and Serer tribes of Senegal, so I was filming that practice-based research. Later on we thought how about we just put that out there as a film, so those who are into connecting with the storytelling through film can also digest this information their way, you know.
Speaker 1:And then, lastly, I'm in development of putting a theatre piece called Gewel, you know, and it's a multi-art form gathering of different people and different artists, projectionists, bringing visual aspect of symbols and the cosmos and how that connects with the rhythms and how also that connects with the way we feel ourselves in a space, through dance, music and visuals. We're trying to tell that, I'm trying to tell that story through the theatre piece called Gewel. So those are the three deliverables, through the 1312 umbrella that I'm putting out there to try and invite people to come and learn about this Senegalese or African cosmovision.
Speaker 2:I love that and I definitely want to get a little bit more into the girl and I think it's yep yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, um, but just before we get into that, like I love your song, tamo ah geez.
Speaker 2:Thank you, yep, oh man. So the blend of Kora and classical was definitely unexpected, but it was captivating nonetheless. It was. It was a really dope mix to what you're saying, right, of different disciplines, where you've got ancient African music coming together with classical music. Um, and on your website. So you describe the 1312 project, as you know, focusing on interdiscipline collaboration. Right, and you've mentioned it before. You know how you're gathering artists, cultural elders, communities and academics to all come together and it's all in an effort to promote ancient wisdom, cultures and global indigenous ways of knowing. So how did you describe the type of knowledge and consciousness that you want to build with this project?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's just within that cosmovision as I was talking about, you know, because that cosmovision puts together three realms of existence such as the natural world, the spiritual world and the cosmos.
Speaker 1:And each of those worlds it takes a lifetime to try and find how to navigate through those, especially from the teaching of the Gewal people, because for me, to learn a bit of this information, I was guided by cultural elders through participation and observation of rituals and sacred ceremonies. So it takes a lifetime to learn all of this. And also the knowledge is so dispersed around the continent where, if in coming from a Gewal family, it was not enough to get the whole picture, because the Gewals will have the rhythmic side of it, but then, let's say, the Fulani will have the cosmic side of it, because they deal with lanes where they can do the counting on the sand and all of those things. And then the Serir will then connect with the waters, like the song you were talking about before, tamo, because that song in there was Latir Muso is a song we sing to invoke the water spirit to come out, and there is a video of that. I can share that with you, so you can also see, I've seen the video.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool, yeah, there you go, so you can see in the video, the spirit was wandering around the water and again, those are the things that through this 1312 work, we're trying to communicate, those feelings, you know, and I think that's where music really helps, because it's a universal language, bringing Kora music, which is very respected, you know, throughout West Africa and in Africa generally.
Speaker 1:In Africa, my aim was to try and show people that the level where we see classical music is the same way we should see Kora music, because Kora has been around before violins and so forth, and you can find lots of similarity of our string instruments from Africa having similarity to Western classical music nowadays.
Speaker 1:So those are the things that I kind of focus on through 1312 work to create a debate, and sometimes some uncomfortable, you know, ways of connecting and having an open conversation and honest conversation, as well as a learning curve, you know, within african communities and outside african communities. That's why combining Quora music and classical music was helping me communicate that knowledge system. So that's one way of communicating and the theatre work that I was just describing before is another way of communicating some part of it, because through theatre you can use emotions of the actors, you can use the visuals to take people through different constellation, star constellations and they can hear the drums and you can have captions giving them the meaning of the drum so they can be more immersed into that knowledge system. So hopefully you know, having all of those different deliverables as an experience to share this knowledge would help get the message across.
Speaker 2:You've got, you know, the one that speaks of the cosmos, the other that speaks from a point of view of nature. That's right. And the third one you said is Is the spiritual world? Spiritual world, exactly. Yeah, like I'd love to sort of see the merge of those three, you know? So that explains, okay. So the opening phrase in that song, so that's basically you chanting or calling out to the water spirit, that's right, okay, and the character that's walking across the beach, that's the spirit. That's the spirit, okay. Yes, yes, because I was very curious, yeah, because I think one of the things I enjoy the music, of course, but like I don't speak the language, right, so like I'm always really curious about, like, what some of the songs talk about. Like, one of my favorite artists is Votore I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name, right the son of Ali Tore, the guitarist.
Speaker 1:Ah yeah, vio Falco Tore. Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was so happy because I bought a couple of his vinyls and I think it was in one of the albums. He actually explains it in English. Yeah, so it was in one of the albums he actually explains it in English.
Speaker 2:Oh nice, yeah, yeah. So it was really nice for me because I was like, oh, finally I get to actually understand. Like, I like the music, I like the tune and I know, you know, there's emotion to it, there's a story behind it, but I want to know what the story actually is. So, speaking of your short film, guel, right, death is the oldest tradition. So I'm quoting that from the, the film you know, and what I gathered is the film is interpreting life as a cosmic and spiritual journey which is guided by the Guel and preparing for both the end and the beginning. Right, so can you share some of the wisdom of the Guel in relation to matters of death and how some of those same principles give direction to life as well? That's right.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's actually the narrative of the theatre work Gewal.
Speaker 1:What you just mentioned there, it's the narrative of the theatre work which is in the making and I guess, yeah, I'm trying to share the life cycle from a Gewal perspective, because death is the oldest tradition. It's one of the songs that one of the future of the knowledge wasn't really promising, you know, so they were kind of leaving that song behind to tell us that death is the oldest tradition and Gables kind of guide us through that life journey, you know, in understanding how to connect the beginning and the end. So it's all about that, you know, in the end it's just connecting every one of us to understand that our journey in life is collecting information and there is life after this life, and to prepare for that is a soul journey that takes you through the landscape of the mind. So, again, connect you with the three spheres of existence, which is the cosmos, the natural world and the spiritual world. Once you embody all of that, you get the purpose of the cycle of life. Then death becomes just a new beginning.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying. Yeah, I definitely have some follow-up questions to that, but I'm curious firstly. So is there a place or like, is there a description of what death is like? You know? So, in the same sense as Christianity, for example, promises heaven, right, the Vikings example. Promises heaven, right, the Vikings, valhalla, right. So is there a realm, that sort of where people then expect to get to after?
Speaker 1:Well, I guess that realm is you, you know, is the individual. You know what I'm saying Because you're alive here, because the consciousness is active, and wherever the consciousness is active, next you are alive there. You know what I'm saying. So, again, it goes with the ways Gewels define death. You know, because in Gewel traditions you should experience death before the final death comes.
Speaker 2:Okay, and how do I do that? And how do?
Speaker 1:you do that is to strip off everything that is unnatural that we take on and think is part of us and think it's part of us. And we need to die in that realm because it's the realm that just occupies our mind and just pulls us away from the true purpose of why we're here in the first place. So that's what guilt communicates. Saying death is the oldest tradition. You know, you get what I mean. Yeah, so that death they're talking about is the many deaths you have to go through before getting to the ultimate one. When you get to the ultimate one and you didn't die before, well, that's a different story. That's a different story.
Speaker 1:But at least once you experience and I was told by many elders I interviewed and learned from to tell me about what they mean, what's that?
Speaker 1:And they say it's when every living thing speaks to you, you know. That's when you experience that new life after one step of death, you know, which is very deep, because it's telling you all, I think. To sum it up and make it less confusing to those who are listening out there, it's more the message they're trying to send is let us be human and stay human, because sometimes we lose that human touch in us and that's what takes us away or drifts us away in acting in ways that are not mindful to nature, mindful to the climate. And look at it today, you know, like we sit and ask questions about the wars that are happening, decisions that are made by, you know, politicians. You know, and look at how we all look away, or whispering the importance of indigenous existence or indigenous knowledge, you know, and if it goes back to you, back to history in Europe and everywhere, you know what I'm saying. It's like anything that is not Christianized is not true knowledge, or it has to go through it for it to be not something evil.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying. To be validated.
Speaker 1:Something validated. So all of those patterns of thoughts need to die in you for you to really see the purpose of why you're here. Then nature will speak to you, the sun will speak to you, the moon you know the air, the trees and so forth. And that's what this whole teaching about the 1312 Project or the Taumonsong or the theatre guild in the making, that's the message I'm trying to send you know from the guild's knowledge perspective.
Speaker 2:You just reminded me of this political, lawyer, activist Her name's, I think, patricia. I'm forgetting her last name, but she speaks on the idea of how standards have led us to be confused, to think that you know that's the way of life, when actually it is a way of life, you know so. The same way, you're talking about how things have to be passed through a certain lens for them to become valid, you know so. We believe in the harmony of, you know, coexisting with nature and the cosmos, as you're saying. It doesn't make it wrong in comparison to Christianity, for example. It just makes it different.
Speaker 1:That's right, that's what it is, because if you go back to ancient Africa, before Islam came to Africa or Christianity we had, we know Africans knew how to communicate and connect with God. You know, and I guess again, that's you know. As I said, the fundamental message of religion is good, but unfortunately it's been used to try and also portray it or vehicle certain agendas that sometimes are not aligned with the way we view the world. Like I was saying before, with 1312, our ancestors were measuring time with the moon. 1312, our ancestors were measuring time with the moon. Now we are forced to do it with the sun. So look at the effect it does or it creates in us. It's huge, but it's so tiny. If you don't pay details, you don't even know.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying and I think it's also very important for Africans to understand that african become africa becoming or is already, is or has many different um africans. You know what I mean, because you find africa for the europeans, you find africa for the arabs, but it's very rare to find jungle Africa or the Africa for the Africans, true, so those are the things that today we should try and have, those type of conversations as Africans, as Africans, to try and see if these cosmovisions, that our ancestors, who were the first scientists and spent years of experimenting this cosmovision, is here for us to enjoy and show to the world. Here we are following a different map or following a different time frame, and so forth. So I think that's the discourse for the African people of the 21st century. How can we look back to the past and see the situation we have right now and try and cultivate or nurture something for the future?
Speaker 2:And, in some essence, right like I see your role as a Guell, you're bestowed the duty of carrying the historical archives of your people. So the tradition is an extensive heritage passed down generations and it's used for preserving that collective memory and that cultural knowledge of your people. And part of it involves playing the kora. So how does the kora invoke ancient worlds? Through music.
Speaker 1:Great question. Yes, the kora. Kora is like the gate or the key to Mandinko history. You know it was used at the time to tell stories and it was actually instruments for the royal families. You know, and there are lots of debates and research out there about actually the name of the Korah where it originated from. But early on, as I was explaining, we have the Mandi Empire from Mali, you know, dated back in the 11th century, so forth or before that. Even that Mali Empire is very famous to the world, you know, for bringing out African music or African culture and so forth, because that's where they had the very first African university, in Tumbuktu, where all wise scholars of African history and culture were gathering. It was like another so-called Egypt at the time.
Speaker 1:And Quora is an instrument, but also it's more like a hard drive of everything that happened in the past. And the songs can tell you that, because some of the songs, if you follow it back, it will lead you to, it will take you back 700 years ago. What happened through the song? Who was there? How did it happen? All of those things happen. You can hear that when the Jalis, who are the culture keepers of the Korah, when they're singing. You can hear that. But the important thing to mention about the Korah is the name. A lot of people in West Africa if you ask them, or in Africa if you ask them what Korah means, they can do lots of search out there but they couldn't tell you what it means. But the word Korah is connected to the corings of Kabul Because they were the rulers, so it was their instrument, because it was for the royal family.
Speaker 1:It was the instrument to keep yes, to keep all the stories and vehicle that story to the future generation, you know. So that's why the Quora plays such an important role in Mandinko cultural storytelling. It's an instrument, but it's also more than an instrument, because if you look at the instrument itself, it's like a piece of art and it has 21 strings from fishing lines and 21 is again three times seven, which makes you know 21. And earlier on I was telling you about mom sang, sang and dispute it with the seven drum tones. So here we see again number seven coming back, which shows you is part of that cosmovision I was talking before, and even the instruments themselves, such as the djembe drum.
Speaker 1:You know the djembe Djembe drum. The name itself tells you what the drum is used for. Djembe in Mandinko means let us all gather in peace, you know. So if I'm in Australia and I can see some Australians at the park playing drums using djembe, it makes me very happy because I translate the meaning of the name and I'm like how amazing is this?
Speaker 1:Our ancestors created this thousands of years ago and call it Bring People Together, and here it is still working in Australia, bringing people in this drum circle at the park. So it shows you how amazing and thoughtful were our ancestors in creating these instruments. And this is just me naming djembe and chorus. But I'm sure all over Africa, wherever you go and you pay attention to the traditional naming of the drum, names of the drum, you'll find other meanings that are not that you cannot hear when the music is happening, but the instrument itself will tell you what it's all about. Yeah, so that's the role the kora plays in our society. It keeps the stories and it's also a wonderful ways to to share it to melodies going to speak about the, the sabba drum, a bit, right.
Speaker 2:So the short film we've got, uh, diop, I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correct. Yep, so you describe the work as an ancient sound world of rhythm and ritual, right, and how there are hidden messages embedded within the musical notes. And, as you'd mentioned earlier, right with the Saba drum, there's seven notes in there which are connecting the physical world to the unseen. That's right. So can you, for context for people, can you explain what the documentary is about and what the short film was about? Right, and in more detail, the samba drum and its various rhythms?
Speaker 1:Thank you. The film documentary was filmed in 2021. And the title is called Dup. And Dup in Wolof means to return, so this was to send a message to Africans and non-Africans to return back to ancient ways of knowing, because there are some hidden informations there to help us tackle or find answers to some questions we may have today. And some of the actors or the elders who I interviewed in that short documentary are all Geyal elders from actually the Seng Seng clan, so they were able to tell me the science of how the drum was built.
Speaker 1:If in the making of the drum is some amazing sacred numbers you know used in the way they cut the skins and in the ways they tune the drums using these drum pegs, because the sabre drum has seven drum tones, but it also has seven pegs that you use to tune the tuning high, low, to just tune it with the voice that you're using, so it can mimic your voice. So this documentary talks about that. Talks about how the sabba drum was used to vehicle knowledge, but also to invoke spirits and again remind us that it's more than a drum that we're dealing with. And the reason why I say it's more than a drum is, of course, if you are playing the rhythms to those who didn't come from the Gewal family, they will just hear a sound. But if you play certain backs like I mentioned before the fact that you know you got bitten by a snake instead of us running to get our mobile phones to call the ambulance, we use the drums to call them.
Speaker 1:That's something valuable that we should keep, because today, look at what's happening. We're all screaming that technology is taking away our lives. You know people are saying less of technology, let's go back to our natural selves. So that goes back to what ancestors knew already, that you know. Let us use the drums to communicate, because it allows sound to be part of our existence, but not just any sounds, organized sounds, that also the drum tones or the sounds you hear are there to heal you and are there to guide you and are there to tell you that, hey, everything you need to know to find the right rhythm to be in connection with the orbitation of our universe is through those sacred rhythms, and that's what this documentary shares from your perspective.
Speaker 2:I love that. It reminds me. The word that comes to mind for me is equanimity. Comes to mind for me is equanimity, you know, through not just, uh, this short film, but through all of your work as well, as you're exploring these um cosmonogies, right, like in the sense that it's about achieving balance, you know the spiritual, the natural and the cosmos, right, and understanding our place within all of that as well.
Speaker 2:You know you were talking before you. You're referring to the idea that you know we need to die two deaths, right? So the first one being to strip ourselves of all of the unnatural things that we've taken on, um, that don't necessarily serve us. So I really like that and I really appreciate, you know, your time coming through and all of the things that you've shared, because you know it's brought me, it's brought me a whole lot closer to the music that I listened to.
Speaker 2:I still may not know what they're singing about, but like I get the, I guess, like the, the, the, the symbol behind what it all means, you know, carries a certain weight to it. So I really appreciate you coming through and and and sharing some of these things and I also do hope for the people that are listening that it prompts all of us to really be curious, you know, to what you're saying about developing a new consciousness, learning about the, I guess, the roots or some of those traditions, to really understand where they come from and why they were not only relevant back then but they're also still relevant today, you know because some of them serve to guide us in terms of the philosophies and how and or ways in which we should lead our lives.
Speaker 2:Um, before we go, though, like I'd love to just, I guess, like kind of throw one last question at you. You know, because I I see what you do as an inheritance from a pure source of history and culture, you know, free of manipulation or misinterpretation from foreigners, right, and I think that's generally a really big issue that we face as Africans in terms of knowing pre-colonial history. So how do you reconcile that knowledge you have of your history, of our history, with the reality of how we see and treat ourselves as Black people?
Speaker 1:today. Yeah, I guess I just have the passion to you know, from a very young age. Just follow this gay world knowledge system systems, because from a very young age I realized how important they were, because both my parents were working in the arts and managed to travel six times around the world to share this knowledge system, and I used to see people who follow them back to africa after their tours in the united states, japan, brazil, so forth, because what they were doing was so relevant to Africans in the diaspora and even non-Africans who live outside of Africa were interested in this knowledge system my parents were sharing with them at the time, so they used to follow them back home and we used to run cultural education classes to Europeans or Americans who used to come visit us, or people from different parts of the world. So from a very young age I saw how important to preserve this knowledge system were. You know, like I was like, if we let this go, what else do we have? You know, as I mentioned before, there are three different Africa out there. You have Africa for the Europeans, africa for the Arabs, but Africa for the Africans must be preserved and that's why I think girls and culture keepers in Africa. Their message or their mission was to make sure that knowledge will never die. So just that itself gives me this amazing excitement and responsibility to make sure that I can carry this knowledge and share it as I go. And using the arts is a wonderful way to do this, but also using research in partnership with Melbourne University, where I am right now talking to you.
Speaker 1:I'm an honorary fellow here and one of my objectives is to have conversations based on what we're talking about the importance of understanding indigenous ways of knowing, ways of learning as well, and giving power to these ancient traditions, because they have many things we can learn from it to better ourselves, but to also know how to connect with nature as a whole. So, again, the inspiration is to just make sure that the cosmovision is activated and to also invite others as well. You know, not just from given knowledge only, but there are many others. You know tribes in africa or who shares this type of knowledge system, and if in if their tribes don't share this and they are into this and they're studying history or they're doing research in any discipline. So, as what we're talking about, my aim is to you know, if I come across anyone like that is, to invite you and we find ways to create knowledge for posterity, to make sure that we can leave things behind, like I've got hold of the knowledge I'm sharing with you. Like I got hold of the knowledge I'm sharing with you If it wasn't kept, you know, somewhere safe.
Speaker 1:Today, you know, I wouldn't be here with all this information or even having elders to go and talk to, because you know it's also some of it is a dying culture which I come across through my research, which is quite sad, and I think time is now for us to activate our consciousness, time is now for us to see the world for what it is.
Speaker 1:It's not a world of one way, it's a world of all creations. And again, as I always like to say, african history was written by the colonizer who come and impose his, you know, makes the history. But now it's time to talk about her history, you know, and that motherness of Africa, that number 13, that connection to the moon, that divine mother, her story will be told by us, you know, and that's the journey that I'm in, and I also thank you for taking the time to invite me, fongai, to share a bit of my knowledge with you, and it's such a great pleasure to have these kind of conversations among Africans, but also invite non-Africans to hear you know how important it is for us to follow our ways of life and also believe in our own African perspectives.
Speaker 2:And I guess, to kind of one thing to leave people with, just based off what you were saying, there is that the responsibility is on us as Africans to preserve that history. We can't expect other people to do that for us. Right, because our history is not only relevant to us, but it is imperative that we preserve it. Right, because the only people that stand to lose from that is us before anybody else. That's right. Yeah, again, thank you for your time and for people who are listening. You know. Thank you for coming through and really hope you took something out of this and, of course, I will share all your work on the episode description so people can see some of the great work that you're doing as well. Um, so to the listeners remember, stay Black.
