What if we told you that your understanding of relationships and self-discovery could be fundamentally flawed by societal conditioning? This episode promises a thought-provoking and enlightening discussion with our guest, Tracy, as we unpack the complexities of relationships and the personal growth that comes from self-discovery. We challenge societal norms and expectations, and encourage honesty and personal accountability.
Navigating relationships requires a profound understanding of both yourself and your partner. Together with Tracy, we scrutinise the notion of living a double life, the power of empathy, and the challenge of having difficult conversations. Our discourse extends to the controversial topic of sexualisation versus empowerment, exploring the policing of women's bodies, the power disparities between genders, and the reclaiming of sexuality.
Beyond relationships, we delve into the impact of identity politics and labels on our understanding of one another. We discuss the perspectives of controversial figures like Jordan Peterson and Candace Owens, and reflect on the potential loneliness and prejudice of being authentic to oneself in the face of societal expectations.
Host:
Fungai Mutsiwa
Instagram: @ blackfor30
Guests:
Tracy Tabvuma
Instagram: Tray Samkele
blckmentality
BlackFor30 is a place for your voice to be heard. DM us your thoughts and questions @blackfor30 or via email at admin@blackfor30.com.
What if we told you that your understanding of relationships and self-discovery could be fundamentally flawed by societal conditioning? This episode promises a thought-provoking and enlightening discussion with our guest, Tracy, as we unpack the complexities of relationships and the personal growth that comes from self-discovery. We challenge societal norms and expectations, and encourage honesty and personal accountability.
Navigating relationships requires a profound understanding of both yourself and your partner. Together with Tracy, we scrutinise the notion of living a double life, the power of empathy, and the challenge of having difficult conversations. Our discourse extends to the controversial topic of sexualisation versus empowerment, exploring the policing of women's bodies, the power disparities between genders, and the reclaiming of sexuality.
Beyond relationships, we delve into the impact of identity politics and labels on our understanding of one another. We discuss the perspectives of controversial figures like Jordan Peterson and Candace Owens, and reflect on the potential loneliness and prejudice of being authentic to oneself in the face of societal expectations.
Host:
Fungai Mutsiwa
Instagram: @ blackfor30
Guests:
Tracy Tabvuma
Instagram: Tray Samkele
blckmentality
BlackFor30 is a place for your voice to be heard. DM us your thoughts and questions @blackfor30 or via email at admin@blackfor30.com.
If you're then being the I guess, the brand ambassador for all women out there, right, but then all you're talking about is the same thing that you hate dudes for, which is propagating this image about women being this commodity, then you're not really helping.
Speaker 2:I have a dream today. Is it too much to ask you to grant us human dignity? Who taught you to hate the texture of your hair? Who taught you to hate the color of your skin to such extent that you bleach? For so many, many years, we were told that only white people are beautiful.
Speaker 1:You're afraid that if you give us equal ground, that we will match you and we will override you. Black is beautiful, green is beautiful. Say that I want a free drink. Usaka ngone duongbo pa wakacheroa, which means don't forget who you are or where you came from. Welcome to Black 430.
Speaker 1:This episode is a continuation of the discussion I have with Tracy where we talk about how men and women relate. Commonly, they say men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Right, and I tend to think that sort of oversimplifies but then also justifies certain behaviors. So we talk about the accountability and expectations of how men and women relate and challenging some of those norms as well. So I hope you enjoy this.
Speaker 1:The whole addiction thing it's our association with certain words, right? So similar to cheating. You can catch dudes who literally be like yeah, but I'm not cheating. They'll try as much as possible just to deny the fact that what they're doing is really messed up. Right, and just to be clear, I've cheated and I felt shit about it, for sure. But, like within that, one of the key things I realized was what's the point in staying in something that's not working, like you're only lying to yourself and your partner, right? So the question then is like so do you want to end up being that couple that's 20 years from now and both of you are just like miserable and resentful, or do you want to be happy with someone right? So, like you'd rather, and I think also because I don't know why, people just don't believe in breaking up, like it's such a hard concept for people to wrap their heads around it. I'm like, if it's not, working.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hard. You know it's hard to let go. That's the biggest thing about it. Yeah, you got a point. Yeah, just let it go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because also, I've never been in love before. So, and I mean it in the sense that. I mean it in the sense that, like, of course you know, because I was married right so I wasn't loved in the same thing as far as, like, my definition of love, You're just dropping all these, like.
Speaker 2:You're just dropping all these. Like what? What did you say? Oh, my God. Okay, so you've got a lot of like life experience to bring on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, I hope, Like my definition of love then is quite different to what it is now, right, so like at least what you know, what I think of relationships and love is quite different. That's what I meant by that. Yeah, I've been in love before at this point, right, so I can, I can say that I can easily say just break it off.
Speaker 2:Would you say that maybe you are in, you experienced a different type of love that you could only experience at that time with the person that you are with at that level. Basically, because it's like obviously love evolves over time and like because I would say that like I think before 25, emotionally wise, in maturity I know people say women mature more faster than men, but I kid you not. I think it's like it really just depends on the person, because I think I matured emotionally around 26. And I was like a lot more understanding of the other person and less about me. And I guess really now focus on like that really kind of verb type of love where you're really trying to put actions into your words, like put actions onto your words. So yeah, yeah, so like you probably felt a different type of love, Like now you've just got a deeper understanding or a newer sense of how you view it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I like how you put it that way. Yes, yes, so I have been alone but, like just two different types. Yes, I guess like so. For me, I've learned to let go of this expectation that it should last forever and I don't go into a relationship wanting it to last forever because I think, like you know, thinking like that makes it difficult to sometimes make honest and clear decisions.
Speaker 2:You know, like someone, yeah, that's a really good point, and I was just thinking like about sort of bringing it back into those expectations kind of conversation that we've been having, and I'm just thinking everything that we've kind of talked about like really, I think expectations are individual, like in each relationship, they should be individualized and I think that's really really explicit as well about the expectations, what it is that they want. And if you don't have the language for it in that moment to actually say, maybe this is how I want or expect to be treated and to treat you in this relationship, then maybe finding some sort of support and I guess, hanging around with different people I'm just a human perspective because I'm just like, I'm just thinking like some of the play. I wouldn't call them friends, but there are some people that I know that a lot of the idea of fun is like let's go and again, nothing wrong. I love going up, but let's just go out, drink smoke, weed and that's just fun. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So it's like if that's all you're used to and just like having conversations obviously watching soccer or whatever, watching something but if that's what you're sort of in a repetition, doing, like how much growing and learning are you going to do if you don't actually get a chance to? Okay, let me go to lunch with my friends. Let's talk about things and again, obviously some people might be more well versed in talking about finances or like their latest investments, whatever. But hopefully within that friendship group someone is also going outside of this circle and then like learning a little bit for different thing and trying to introduce that topic into their other circle. But in saying that, I've also heard people saying that they know that there's certain circles that are just there for fun which I've been guilty of in the past as well where I'm like you know, this person's just a fun person, like we're not that deep. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:We're not yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Then it kind of puts you back to square one, to be like how can you then expand your circle? So the onus is really on you, isn't it? On the person you have to go out and look for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or just search on. Yeah, and you know, you don't necessarily have to surround yourself by like the same type of people, right? Like I have different groups of friends, right. When we hang out, we do different things, so the interest across the different groups can be similar, but I still hang out with them and do different shit, you know, and I like that because I'm learning from so many different angles or like perspectives, right? You know, as you were talking, I actually laughed because I had this idea in my head. I was like yo, you're talking about how the idea for like relationships is such an individual experience, right?
Speaker 1:So I was like yo, we should do a dating workshop. So everybody's talking about like they always want to do, like you know, speed dating or whatever, and like trying to hook people up. I'm like, well, maybe let's start from step one, like how do you get into a relationship, like you know? Like how do you grow a relationship? You know, because I feel like there's probably a lot of people who could do with that.
Speaker 2:But will people be honest enough to be like I need to go to that workshop Because I was going to say to your point oh sorry, go on.
Speaker 1:No, no, like I was just thinking, you know, it's about how you sell it right, because it's not like, hey, there's something wrong with you, come let me fix it Right? It's the whole idea that, like, we're all fallible, but if we can all learn from each other, it's a lot better, right? So you don't have to stop from from square one because, like, I've lived through this, so, like, let me help you out and stop you from that mistake you're about to walk into, sort of thing, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and the thing is as well like if it's a workshop, technically I guess it will be on an opt-in basis, where people actually choose to go there, not my force, so that will be like a benefit of actually sort of having people that are interested in learning. But yeah, it's kind of interesting thing. And I was going to say to your point about, I guess, how people can also learn and surround themselves, be friends with black women, to be fair, like actually friends, like not trying to shag your friend, kind of like relationship, actually just being like you know what. I look at you as someone that I actually just want to be friends with. I have no ulterior motive. Yes, it's normal to be attracted to someone like it's quite a human thing to do with all God eyes, but not actually then sort of breaking that boundary. When you're a friend, you know, I mean, you're not looking for an opportunity to be like, oh, are they going to break up with their boyfriend?
Speaker 1:or something like that. You know, I'm just working.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because when you actually have real friendships, like you grow from that, like you learn so much from other people, like you also have different perspectives and I think that's really important to make sure like people can engage with that as well, especially black men that want to learn more perspectives and understand. But you also have to be open. You can't just be like okay, now I'm hearing this black woman talk about her experiences and I'm going to deny them just because they don't sit well with myself. Like, if you start feeling uncomfortable, maybe you interrogate that first, like why do you feel uncomfortable? Why do you feel like attached, you know? So yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:Even now it's an expectation I have? Hmm, it's an expectation I have personally. Just a level of attention that's required.
Speaker 1:But I guess, like you know, like like listening more benefits a lot of people, like it benefits you and the other person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I used to have this thing where I would it's so interesting where I just be like, obviously it's a you problem, like that was the thing. But then just even like sometimes I would listen. But then I think I'll just be like very much solution focused, to be like, okay, what's next, how are we going to solve this? But then I realized that that's not always going to be the case. Really, meeting someone at their journey is like, if they're not ready to move on from there, like you have to be willing to then move away from that situation If it's not serving your interests as well. So I think also people, black women, have some level of introspection for themselves. Like if that man is not meeting your needs and if that friend is not really being a good friend to you as a black man, then perhaps let it go. It's easiest in the dumb, but let it go.
Speaker 1:At least try to you know what I mean. Like, like, like work on how to let go of shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a thing. Yeah, cuz you. You raised a really good point around cheating a white people stay. Obviously we know there's a lot of socialization that's happened. Like you stay through the thick of it, doesn't matter. Like, like what's a thing, like what's that? The mum one saying I forgot now, but like the one like you know to. Like you don't leave your husband, no matter what. Like I was just like I found that why you're like like my mom's never said that I think in this, but like it's one of those things where I've heard auntie say that like, especially in the context of Someone who I knew that was being abused, and they were like Romantic leaders, yeah, room in a top of thing. I'm just like. Which? I mean like Cuz I like wait.
Speaker 2:So you're like, like, like beating your wife is supposed to be anything yes, this week, but yeah. So I think I learned that that is Definitely something you need to let go of, those socializations as well, like that, yeah, that that is a big thing. But then how do you become aware that if you're not exposed to anything else, but that that's always the problem, isn't it? It's like it's about exposure sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, like it's hard. Oh Is like reference to this analogy right when you're standing too close to an elephant right, or you can see the skin but yeah when you step back, then you actually start to see our shit. It's an elephant, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, like when you're in it, it's really hard, because I like, like you know, for me and one of my experiences I think it was Like this time to get out of a relationship was because, like I felt like I was losing myself, you know, and I Just had to come to terms with the fact that, like I was lying to myself and I was lying to my partner and it was not fair for both of them.
Speaker 2:I Guess how did that realization come for you, though? Like how did you start feeling like, huh, I'm not really being myself right now and I'm not being authentically the person that I should be, and for this person as well?
Speaker 1:I mean, I Was literally like living a double life, right, like I'll be home and I'll be this person, right, but when I'm out with the boys, I'm a completely different person, right, and I Couldn't wait to get out and and hang out with the boys, right?
Speaker 2:So, it.
Speaker 1:So I knew it wasn't okay, right, but I think you know that's. This is where maturity comes into play. I Wasn't ready to have that conversation with myself, let alone with my partner. So it took me a while to to get to that point where. So it was like you're literally living through the same thing over and over again, right, and you know it's bad for you, but like you keep doing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, until like like yeah, so. So for me it was just Almost like a bit of delaying that conversation. Really no reason from the fact that I didn't, you know. And then One day I was like fuck it there's, you know, yeah, because you're always thinking, and there's almost like this whole build-up thing to it as well, where it's like, well, I just, you know, I need to do this or whatever, and once this is sort of like set up this way, this will be the perfect time to then have that conversation or whatever. Like some people will do that, right, yeah, and the reality is like, if you even actually starting to think About wanting to leave, you probably should, or at least have have a conversation with, with, with your partner. Right, work shit out, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a wow. That's really profound because if you think about it, like, like, obviously, like your whole journey, like really led to you sort of Understanding maybe the reasons why you did some things, like you said you weren't ready to have that conversation. And then it kind of brings me back to like, I still kind of have this belief as well, where I think and Probably gonna be controversial sometimes black men Will have this evolution or self-discovery, but at the expense of black women, like I'm not saying that you're with a black woman or anything.
Speaker 2:But I'm just just maybe think about that, where I'm like usually it's like, let's say, someone who was colorist who starts saying you know, yellow bones are the best you know, I mean. But then to a point like when they grow up later on they're starting to realize how hurtful that was, but they've already kind of like really hurt a lot of black women down the trail, you know me, and they're probably like really damaged some people's self-esteem at some point. But then it's like, yes, this self-discovery is great, I guess. How do you then sort of reconcile and take accountability and I guess also, I don't know like ask for forgiveness or seek some sort of fun, I don't know a mutual Resolution with the people that you've heard in the past when it comes to that?
Speaker 1:It's a hardware, like. I think Empathy is the answer because we're we're. We're behaving the way we behave, not because it's our own choosing, like as in we're not. We're not choosing to hurt black women, right? A lot of us are raised by black women, right? So we're not doing it because we intentionally want to hurt black women. But you know, if I still have shit to purses personally, it's so difficult for me to reach out to you, right? So the whole idea around empathy at least my understanding of it right, is if you're in a hole, right, I need to make sure that I can actually get out of the hole first Before I jump in it and try to rescue you, right? So for me to Learn to treat a black woman in the right way. It's difficult for me to do that if I kind of in C past my own issues, right?
Speaker 2:So yeah, I mean, yeah, I totally get what you mean, that obviously, like, like you said, like using that analogy of the elephant, that you can only see the skin until you sort of move back and You've got all the tools you need to do to get yourself out the hole. I Guess, with that understanding obviously, and trying to be more compassionate and understanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah but when still stands that like you've gone through you've got you black women that you've actually sort of hurt like and Don't forget like, because you might have like and this is the part where I always Struggle to grapple with that like we've all been raised in the same system. Yes, fair enough, our socialization, socialization kind of happens differently and as black women usually we're kind of forced to grow up quicker because the world Makes us force to grow up quicker. But in itself we're still going through those things as well that maybe you guys went through, where maybe there wasn't a father figure, there wasn't a mother figure, didn't see healthy modeling of relationships, that kind of stuff, but at the same time, to love black men, we didn't have to hate you or hurt you in the process. You know what I mean. Like, obviously not everyone's like that, but some people might have. But then usually consensus, wise black women always are Capping for black men. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah so it's like it's kind of like how do we sort of marry the two, where it's kind of like you guys, because then this is. I used to say this quite a bit until I realized, hey, let me be with a circle of people that actually care and love me rather than care about other people's issues.
Speaker 2:But I used to say I didn't feel protected by a black, by black men and feel Safe sometimes around black men, and I'm not saying like, oh, that's because other races were better.
Speaker 2:No, like I'm talking just now context where I'm like, for example, as a young person, you're kind of told go put on some clothes because you know so-and-so it's coming on.
Speaker 2:How am I gonna encourage safety around my own body and like inside my own home if Uncle so-and-so can't see my legs because he will be tempted to do something when it's a him problem? You know what I mean Is one of those things where I'm like, like, obviously it's like it's a huge tackling stuff because that's like massive systematic issues that, like we're trying to like address. But in itself I'm just thinking like nowadays, obviously we know that like there are men, black men, that definitely protect black women, that make them feel safe, and I think I gravitate more to those people and I won't necessarily try to Not like not victim blaming or anything like this kind of sounds like it's gonna be like a victim blaming. I won't put myself in situations where if I don't know you like that, I'm not gonna be really trying to be like be around you in situations like yeah, cuz it's like, think about it.
Speaker 2:Like you go out at night, like if you have your friends that you feel safer, but like, let's say, if you're with a group of black guys that you might not know as much as well, and then something someone disrespects you, someone does something like how can you expect them to protect you when you don't really know them? Like that that's my mentality these days, where I'm like I'll only be with the people that I know right for me, not just randoms, like that used to be my expectation back in the day. But if you see a black woman being disrespected in some way, you jump in and sort of assist them. You know what I mean. Like just like I would jump in for a black man, but Each to their own and really now I'm all about.
Speaker 2:So you probably but it's like it's really come to that, where it's like obviously I'm not gonna just walk past if someone is actually going through injustice. I'm not just gonna be like, yeah, so I don't know if you'll jump in for me, so I'm not gonna do that, but I will actually like say something or like try to see if they need help. Like I'll just be like you, good, that's kind of stuff. I won't necessarily leave your high and dry, but it's not an expectation I have from others. Like if I was to go through something and and I See a black man there and I look at them, I'm not really running to be like, is this person gonna come in?
Speaker 1:That's the whole thing, right, like, especially with a lot of this, is Setting boundaries for yourself. Otherwise, like you're always gonna be charged up. You know you're always fighting someone else's battle. Yeah, cuz, at the end of the day, after all of this, right, you're still you and like you need to live your own life and you still need to enjoy that. So, like, at least that's that's how I move right where I'm, like I do, I do what I, I do what I can and and I do what I love.
Speaker 1:However, I Also need to keep that balance to make sure that you know like I'm not over-exerting myself and like putting myself in situations that I don't need to be in. Um, but, going back to your earlier question, though it it's hard, you know like I Don't think there's any way of retrospectively going and trying to Fix, you know, all the broken hearts or all those fucked up experiences, like it's so difficult and I think, like I almost want to say, you know you focus on what you can control, and what you can control is in the right now, because it's really unfortunate that, like there's a lot of women who've grown up that way, you know, being told that you, you have to hide your body so that you know you make Uh, men comfortable, you know, um.
Speaker 1:So I think it's about learning from that. Both men and women, right, um, but more men on this, on on this particular one, right? And? And how do we become better at a shit like that, like where you should be, like you can dress however you feel, like dressing right, and that ain't got nothing to do with me. I don't like it, I just don't look at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to be fair, and that's the thing I think as a. I think this is bare minimum as well as an expectation that just don't sexualize everything like literally, but honestly, someone can wear whatever they want. They could be naked in front of you, but like you can look Even then. It's like okay if you stare a little too long, is yeah? Yeah, I don't man, I just type of thing Well, but I don't care what's going on.
Speaker 1:But unless I think you're hot, though, you know, unless I think unless I think.
Speaker 2:That's the thing right, but then at the same time it's kind of like you still have no right to that person's body. You cannot be, entitled to.
Speaker 2:You want to, but so I think that's a. That's a problem where people sexualize everything to the point where women's bodies are policed and like it like, literally, even like, oh, like. I don't even want to bring this up, but like that young um, there's a young girl that a Former male or something in America called the police on Um, she was nine and then he referred to her as a woman, so adultifying a nine-year-old. Imagine that like.
Speaker 2:Well, he called the police and told them that, like she's a nine-year-old Sorry, he was like there's a small woman that's outside my Um house and that's doing some things. That's making me feel threatened and dangerous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's like, oh my gosh, like firstly, that was wrong in itself and apparently he knew the girl and she was actually trying to do a few research about Something to protect the neighborhood or something like. I can't remember exactly the full story, but I was just thinking I was like and there was a white man and it was just like Bra, white, white people be doing white people shit sometimes. But it's one of those things. I was just like nah, like honestly, like like why is there such a need to adultify or sexualize a lot of? Obviously it wasn't sexualizing in that moment, but just the me fact of adultifying a child in itself, kind of like that, that that causes a lot of problems and that can be scaled up again or that can exacerbate.
Speaker 1:So look is You're, you're? You're then tapping into issues around Like how a lot of shit is just normalized in society, right, because, like we're, we're fed, we're fed these images. So we, for me, for I think it had to start from a point where for me to think A bikini is hot, right, um, it's because it was being sold as, yeah, you know, in a sexual context, right? So Now, the less clothes a woman's got on instagram, the more attractive she is, the more like she is, right? So, like now, some just reinforces that and and and this is so I have coming to coming to personal preferences, right, like, I'm, I'm dating now and when I'm looking at the women, it's, it's really interesting for me, right, because You're told that Women are More mature than men.
Speaker 1:But my experience of it now is quite different and I think it's because I've had so much time to Work on myself or, like, just get to know myself. So I'm at a point where now I'm meeting a lot of women and I'm like yo, you are not ready, right, um, and the social media doesn't help in as far as, like social media and music for me, right, like, uh, like the coddy bees, the uh sweetie, or uh, what's the other one? It's like city girls. I think that's a yeah like.
Speaker 1:Um, when you're hearing the, the content right, so for me I can listen to it and probably enjoy it, but I know not to take it seriously, right?
Speaker 1:um, but there's a lot of people who are feeding off that and and they, they draw shit from it so they didn't start to.
Speaker 1:Well, no, like it is even how you know, pussy's basically made a commodity, like when you, when you look at a lot of American female rappers that, of course, I know. I'm not saying they started it, right, odds are some dude somewhere started it, but they're not helping in as far as well. If you're, then being the Uh, I guess, the brand ambassador for all women out there, right, but then all you're talking about is the same thing that you hate dudes for, which is Propagating this uh image about, um, women being this commodity, then you're not really helping, right, because, like I've been, you know, I have had experiences with dating some women who are that sort of. You know, that chick on instagram is like just self obsessed, or or that chick that thinks she's a you know she's Cardi B and she's talking about how, you know, um, like Her, like, sex is transactional, right. So I think there's also that element. But then this is me speaking from a dude looking at how my experiences are with uh dating women.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an interesting point because I think, um, I see what you mean in terms of like, yes, at the same time, um, there is that oversexualization that happens from men, but then there's that also that element where women are trying to reclaim their sexuality for the sex, to reclaim their sexuality for themselves, like and empowering themselves through, I guess, seeing the pussy power. Basically, if you like, you've heard that before, but basically just saying that you know what, even though, yes, I see as a commodity, because, if you think about and this is why a lot of sex workers and I advocate for that as well are trying to have a lot of more, um, I guess, more independence and autonomy over how the industry is run, so that they it's not necessarily just for men that they actually benefit a lot more from it. Because, yeah, you can make money, but don't forget, it's also Decriminalized, criminalized in some areas, um, even though the most consumers are men, it's regulated according to the men. So that's the part where they're trying to sort of remove that. So I get that and I also understand the two sides of the story where it's like, men will see it as okay.
Speaker 2:Now, you're doing a lot of things. That other, like you're saying that you don't want men to do. So I think in those circumstances Wouldn't it be then important to See where values align, like, for example, you said, your maturity. Even the concept of maturity I also have. Like it's interesting because in itself the way that you find sometimes usually really about behaviors that I guess have a Different societal norm, so in some ways it's like if you're mature you should be dressing a certain way.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's. That concept in itself is Interesting because I would say there's emotional maturity, where you learn to be able to Perspective, take you to be able to regulate your emotions, that kind of stuff. So it makes sense. But when it's like Paired with behaviors, usually a lot of those behaviors are kind of oppressive in a way, if you think about it. Yeah, but I'm saying that To your point about like the Like the people you've dated that were on, let's say, in stirrer.
Speaker 2:So Perhaps it was just a misalignment of values because that person like I know you describe them as self obsessive Kind of like. Like I would say, obviously not bringing guys into it, but it's kind of like. If you know that this person has chosen this path of trying to use transactional Pussy power and sex wise, are they going to be what I need right now? And if you're only attracted to them because of their message, well, because of what they were Portraying, then they, they've won, like not won, but they've really sort of gotten what they want from whatever Interaction it is, because that's what they intended, right, but not you, because you're probably wanting something deeper. So then you kind of realize that maybe the people that you want, whilst those are the most attractive people to you might not be Really like the instant models or anything like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so then it's like it's a, yeah, it's a.
Speaker 2:It's a complex issue because it's like it's really dependent on how well you know each other yourself and to be able to Then attract and look for the same people that you kind of want. But at the same time, we're all human, like said we've, we're fallible too and susceptible to attractiveness, to like sometimes we think with our eyes and Before we even, like you, know a lot of things.
Speaker 1:So no, it's, it's interesting, it's really interesting, like just so just going back to the whole like maturity thing right, I definitely agree with you because I think there's the maturity to what you're saying is Are you behaving according to the status quo? Right? So, for a 30 year old man, are you doing what you're meant to be doing, right? Do you have a job, do you have a house or whatever? I think of it more in the sense of you. You spoke about emotional, like regulating your emotions, right, like that's. That's like a massive thing, and where I find that funny enough.
Speaker 1:I thought, okay, cool, so what you actually need to do is work on yourself. Once you work on yourself, then like you're set, because then you're just going to find this woman and it's all going to work out, right, yeah. And then you really like, yeah, right, yeah. And then you realize, oh shit, yeah, there's. There's that unknown variable which is the other person right. And then you meet the person right and then you realize they're not when you'd want your partner to be at right.
Speaker 1:Um, so in some cases it doesn't reveal itself until you know, weeks or months or sometimes, depending on the relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's true, and like you can be infatuated to the point where you don't realize these things at the beginning. But I think you see, the more relationships you have and then the more growth you have, like personal growth. I think you'll be able to start recognizing what you need earlier on and being like hey, yep, I find you attractive, but maybe you don't have the emotional stability that I was hoping for. Like you can't take my perspective, you only see your way as the right way type of thing. And or maybe even just recognizing them. Because one of my biggest thing as well don't try to change someone. Like accept the package as it is and with the person. Like they bring a problem to them and maybe they feel like they can work on it to change a certain aspect of how they're behaving so that they can actually better meet your needs. It has to come from them, but not from you forcing it.
Speaker 2:That's your partner maybe respecting and recognizing like they would like to meet your needs and then vice versa as well. You know what I mean. But not necessarily say oh, yeah, like there's a potential. That is dangerous territory, tentiful change or whatever. Obviously people have potential, but it's like that, like you can't base a whole relationship on how you think they might be in the future and you have to also work with them now, like you can't just yeah, yeah, that's the tricky thing about the word expectations, Because understand who you want like in the sense of their values, right Understanding what's negotiable and what's non negotiable for you.
Speaker 1:You also have to be realistic, because you're not going to find someone that's going to match to the tea everything that you want. So pick a couple. You know, three things that you think are non negotiable but like, it's like. Once you do that, it makes it easier because you've got some sort of like rubric to go off. So it makes it easier for you to even, you know, fight stuff like lust and infatuation, because you can always go back and think, okay, cool, at the end of the day, does this person have these three things that I want? Right, and it's like for me, for me, I'm like I could meet a girl that I'm like, physically attracted to, right.
Speaker 1:But then I can also realize, okay, cool, this is never gonna be a relationship, so I don't know how to treat it. And I know how to move within that, the context of that relationship, because I'm like, okay, we can, you know, we can have sex or we can hang out, we can, you know, go for hikes or drives or whatever, because that's that's where I, I, or like I enjoyed that, that relationship.
Speaker 2:And I thought I want both.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because, because I definitely make it, make it clear, right. But then yeah, so like it's easier if you actually know what you want and that's a great point.
Speaker 2:So again that same expectation comes back that if you can know yourself know that yourself, like everything you've been saying is really pointing to, I think.
Speaker 2:obviously, like I'm not trying, obviously this is Blackboard 30. And I'm not trying to say like I 30, you should have it all figured out, but at least really get to some. Like you said, just know your, like you're not negotiables, because I think that really helped weed out a lot of the things that might have enticed you back in like in the past or something. So like I guess an expectation from a black woman is just know that yourself, so that you don't waste no time, or like also even that saying right, waste no time. It's kind of like it's interesting, because I'm like I feel like that term comes, like it's somehow always attached to marriage, like as in like don't waste my time. You know what I mean, because like yeah, I see it extending far beyond marriage.
Speaker 2:Because I think in general like if the person is looking for commitment with one person who doesn't have to be married or anything like that, but just some sort of commitment, long term wise like then just be honest with them, like maybe that's not what you're looking for at that time and that you just want to have fun, you just want to do things with them, but not necessarily commit. And even if you're unsure, then that I think the ornest is also on the other person to also know themselves to be like, if someone can't give me this shority, I am not going to be fully in this or I am going to leave. I'm going to keep on exploring my options. I'm a huge proponent of explore options. Women don't have to, I have to stay, especially if you're just in the talking phase, like unless there's a definition, there's a whole thing that now go, go, explore.
Speaker 1:I'm committed to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because it's like what are you committing to when, like, there's no actual like you haven't had that conversation to say that we are in it together, you know, and we like, yeah, but it's it's easier said than done. Again, because it's like, again our conditioning comes into play. You know, commit as quickly as you can, True, yeah, interesting conversation for sure about expectation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like this has definitely been dope Like, because, as we're talking along the way, like it's just sort of like got me to like rethink certain things but then also reaffirm certain things as well. It's really cool, and I think, you know, my dream is in some ways, like a point where we are talking a lot more about the shit like isn't like I think about, even in as far as it's even in a relationship, right, I never used to talk about shit like this, which is crazy, because it's like, how are you not talking about these things with the person that you want to be with? Right, that should be the first person that, like really knows these things, because, like, yeah, y'all have to be aligned.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even like talking about things that are deep, like, literally like existential crisis. Being able to talk about like, literally, like what would happen if you were like, so not focusing on problems, it's like actually having very philosophical conversations. Like it's like right now Artemis is on like orbiting the moon. You know what I mean. So it's like how to move to that next step of going beyond Earth, you know and climate change would need to as like people.
Speaker 2:We really need to have that conversation because I'm calling him like. Our countries are being affected a lot more than the people that actually produce the climate issues.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, I would love to have a breadth of conversations that we can actually be having, other than like the problems within our dynamics.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like you said, it's important as well. But I think I started getting tired of this conversations in that like, obviously this was a conversation, it don't get me wrong. But I mean like like I swear, in two years I'm sure someone is going to come up with a podcast. They're going to be talking about the same thing they're going to be like. They're going to be like. You know what, guys? We haven't talked about expectations between black men and black women you know I mean no, like this conversation.
Speaker 2:Oh, obviously like. It's good to hear fresh new ideas but, I think like to that point. It's like we also can evolve and I reckon maybe our age group, maybe we will be past that point where we're actually now talking about what investment portfolio have you been? On today. When are you going to retire? Which country are you going to next? Which?
Speaker 2:yeah, like you know that, different conversations that are escaping beyond, I guess, the oppressive systems, and like again, like we've both said, knowledge is a burden sometimes, so we both understand the dynamics, but it's like, I think, as we are evolving as people, we also recognizing that like it's not our burden to carry all the time, like we can recognize this shit, but it's also out of our control.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's which it was a good takeaway for me as well, like from this conversation well, and also, like I guess, like you know, having having difficult conversations makes it easy to have easy conversations, right? So like I can then talk to you about you know shit that's happening on the moon, because oh no, no, I get passionate about climate change.
Speaker 1:That's a difficult yeah, sure, like you know so or okay, I guess maybe something more more lighter, like like, like movies, you know you could or just talk about stuff that happens within society or or stuff that happened when you were kids. When you're growing up, you know like it's easier to for you to talk about anything and everything because you're you've created that space where you can actually even talk about real shit and you know, things won't fall apart yeah, yeah, and that's a thing as well, because, um, you, like you just said, um there was one thing, um, like I mean both having a conversation.
Speaker 2:Obviously everyone had different like childhoods and stuff. Like I'm sure a lot of people have had trauma. Um, and I'm not saying like you need to be able to heal from your trauma, but like I guess there's only so much. Sometimes, as black women, I know we excuse the behaviors of like very unhealthy and toxic behaviors from black men as a result of like trauma. But it's like trauma does not cause you to be an indecent human being. You know what I mean. Like obviously we understand unhealed and unresolved shit can escalate, um, especially if then your circumstances exacerbate it. You know what I mean. But we're possible. It's like if you are seeing that like there's that unresolved shit and it's not working for you, like honestly disengage, like it's it's all, if you like it's not your burden to carry, and like that's what I'm trying to say, because I'm like, as much as you want to be able to help someone like you can't be someone's you know you can't have a like, because trauma attachments do happen.
Speaker 2:Like maybe you bond over the fact that they both had similar traumas or some sort of traumas, but then someone is now healing from it, the other person's still stuck in it and then, like it's now causing clashes, that kind of stuff, and it causes problems. I reckon, save yourself where possible. Like it's not being like I'm not trying to be come across as like really lacking compassion, but it's also coming from a self-preservation type of um, like yeah, perspective, just because it's yeah. Like I've seen too many people like excuse certain things as a result of trauma and then in there in the same breath that they're going through a lot of stuff with that person, but like still saying no, no, no, it's because of this. That happened in the past. You know I mean like yeah, it's tough, it's tough but I was going to say, one more expectation yeah.
Speaker 2:I think black men just to be like I think more now this applies to more America than Australia it's going to say just to see the humanity in people, especially like other black men, like you know what I mean yeah, yeah, yeah like just to see that, like the people like, and, to be fair, like obviously a lot of it comes down to emotional regulation and just like recognizing the value of human life.
Speaker 2:But the only reason why I said that was because that whole takeoff um incident like that was like I'm not crazy about the megos but I was like takeoff was funny, like so I kind of like it looked at clips of off him and stuff, like I was just like whoa, that was like that. That shocked me, like I was like the fuck, like how did this? What? Like you know?
Speaker 1:what I was caught, you know, and I like what you said, you know isn't looking at each other as humans, because it's like tearing down the you know all of the constructs society brings, and this is like looking at the next person as just another person that's just going through life, uh, which is, you know, um, to different degrees as difficult or complex as yours. It's a lot easier if you just think of it that way, as opposed to, like you know, whether it's masculinity or gender roles or however you want to look at it like that, then just makes, uh, makes it a lot more complicated yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:Just treat each other like humans, that's all. I think we all have to be treated with respect, with love, with kindness. I think that's just the bare minimum that we can do. Obviously piss us off and shit, but like really at the core for like.
Speaker 2:I think you know, just like having that common humanity, just like remembering this person is a human they probably have shit that they're going through as well and just like, obviously it's not nice to have abuse thrown at you if let's say they were abusive, but it's like being assertive and being like, nah, like that doesn't fly with me, but then like stepping back and just be like I'm a walk away from this rather than add, add to the fuel. You know what I mean. So but yeah, gosh, wow, that's a good morbid turn.
Speaker 2:So I guess last thoughts on this like expectations, especially between black women and black men, yeah what are your last I like how you um, you've summed it up right.
Speaker 1:I think we, especially now more than ever because of social media, that we spend so much time just attaching labels to so many things, um that it does actually become difficult to see you as just another person because, like I'm probably thinking, oh, you know she's black, oh, she's a woman, so she must be, you know this agenda, um, or she, she must fit this particular profile, right, identity, all that shit. So it's. We get lost in identity politics and we forget that it is just another person, right?
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, if we can just be a lot more kinder yeah for sure, and like to be fair, obviously that's not negating the reality of how things are. Because I remember, um, the first time I ever heard Jordan Peterson like even though he's got problematic views talking about how we shouldn't be having these identity politics, right, I was like I was really like high strung about. I was like how day he's saying I like it's probably coming from a privileged point of view. But then if you think about it, like I agree because at the core, like I agree with the principle in that, um, identity politics, like anyone should be able to really like, like not agree, but like I have an understanding of where it's coming from. Because I think, to a point, he then also negates a lot of that um, autonomy in how you identify yourself.
Speaker 2:So I think, yes, to some degree, yes, there's so many labels out there, but then, at the same time, like people are allowed to be able to identify however they want to be identified. Um, and ideally, like you should never like be like denying someone's existence, like because a lot of I think his problems is he's quite transphobic, isn't it? From my understanding. So I was just like, whoa, okay, um, that that's another thing in itself. But I was like yeah, there's a lot of like labels that we place on. I think sometimes the emphasis becomes on those labels and then assumptions behind those labels, without actually looking at the person who's maybe identifying a certain way, and we all label each other and ourselves in different ways, but at the core, I feel we're all human, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, exactly, you know, like, and I don't know we're wrapping up right. I I recently listened to um Candace Owens, who, um slowly getting really into like um, um, I actually, uh, I actually I know this is really controversial and like y'all can't see this, but like Tracy's like flipping out right now, uh, and so I say it because, like um, you know I was listening to her. Uh, just talk about how you've actually made me lose my train of thought because of how you reacted to the situation. Sorry sorry.
Speaker 2:At the same time, you're right, because you know what. We should be able to listen to different perspectives and then just leave it as as it is but at the same time, I'm also a proponent of like being careful of what you've put into your subconscious oh, oh, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 1:Um wait, what? What did you say just before I started talking about Candace?
Speaker 2:um, oh sorry, like I got consumed by my reaction to Candace but, I know my Jordan Peterson and the amount of labels like that. Like I was saying, I kind of understand what it's coming to you about, how we label ourselves and other people with all these varying labels. But if it were all human, like I'm just want to be loved and cared for, yeah yeah, cool, okay, now I'm back.
Speaker 1:So.
Speaker 1:So I was listening to so I was listening to her, her show and she spoke about group identity in the sense that, like, a lot of people call her, like you know, um, a, I guess, the female version of an uncle Tom, right, yeah, exactly, and and the reason that people do what what she was saying is from her perspective is people have expected her to to fit this particular mold for a black woman, and because she doesn't think in certain ways that are accepted as a black woman, she's then seen as this uncle Tom or a caller, right.
Speaker 1:And because it was actually interesting for me because I put her off when she first came out and in the media right, this was probably a couple of years ago and she was being painted as that, right, and I never actually gave her any time. I then listened to one of her episodes and I realized we actually have several things that in common that we agree on. So there may be certain things that I don't agree with what she says, but then that's natural with almost everybody, right. So it was really interesting for me because she was talking about how you then become a victim of this group identity, because it's like well, because you're a black woman, you should act and behave this certain way and you should think and believe these certain things. The moment you step out of it, your group will victimize you for that, and that was her experience.
Speaker 2:And I think I completely agree with that, like the group identity thing that you can be ostracized. I sometimes feel ostracized, but not by my people, but just again, maybe it's my own perception, but then also it's lived experience because of the fact that I guess the free spirit that I tried to cultivate for myself sometimes doesn't align with that Like, let's say, zimbabwean type of like, I don't know, like group identity and belief. It's like when you're not like as a woman as well, because, like we have to agree, our country is very patriarchal, right, and our people are still patriarchal. And I'm very much about being your own person, like regardless of your gender, like I'm not here to be. I wasn't raised for a man. I'm not like, neither was a man raised for me. You know what I mean. So it's one of the things that sometimes clashes.
Speaker 2:And then, like the whole religion thing as well, I don't subscribe to religion and because of that it's like literally like a lot of ties are kind of like. Like when I go to, like obviously older people you kind of have, I respect people's like, obviously, traditions and practices. I'm not gonna be like just because you're all religious, I'm not gonna be participating. I think there's a devil stuff or anything. No, I'm not gonna do that because I respect that. But then it kind of like I sometimes feel like before I felt like it was a lonely journey, but it's no longer a lonely journey because I know that I like minded people and I feel comfort in knowing that I'm still authentic to myself. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But in saying that with Candice I do and I get what you mean Cause even the other day, my partner was listening, like full disclosure, he does not listen to Donald Trump, but he fell asleep and a video like he was on YouTube and then like a video of Donald Trump speaking came up and he kept on talking and, oh my God, like it was excruciating I'm not gonna lie, it was excruciating to him the things I was saying, cause it was like very much in denial of people's existence and lived experience. So it's kind of like he was talking about how, like, we really need to protect the family unit. A man and a woman should really be a man and a woman. You know what I mean and I'm just like whoa, how like that's, that's hurtful if you identify as someone who's not biologically a man or biologically a woman. You know what I mean. Cause, like he was like proper, like saying they, the real ones, should be the real ones.
Speaker 2:But I was just like, so I was listening to it, cause I ended up turning off cause I was like, nah, this is too much, but I'll not moment. It's kind of like there was something he said about healthcare and I was like, yeah, that's right, like. So you agree with something. So even though, yes, maybe his whole imaging is really racist. So that's why I?
Speaker 2:wouldn't necessarily gravitate to someone like that, and I think that's why we're allowed to choose who we then listen to. But like at the same time, like you can't write. You can write someone off if you want to, but you can't then deny that person's lived experience as well, just because you really fundamentally don't agree with them. Like fine they can continue doing it.
Speaker 2:I think it's only when they have power and they really kind of can do things to oppress other people and Donald was in that role. I think that's when it becomes a huge issue in a way, where there's power and there's oppressive views can be hard don't you.
Speaker 1:Okay, this has been really dope. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for sacrificing your time on this lovely Saturday. Look, I hope this has been fun listening to whoever is listening, as much as it was for us to actually talk about this, and I really hope for more discussions to be had, not just between the two of us but, like by a whole lot more people, and hopefully we can start to actually resolve some of the issues that we spoke about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and it was fun and I challenge you to do that relationship workshop that you're talking about Workshop.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about some sort of like black men safe space to having conversations around expectations.
Speaker 2:That would be good. That would be good.
Speaker 1:Well, like I'll definitely have a think about that one, because that would be difficult, that would be a tall task, but Mask it as a like, a funny event and then be like let's talk about this, guys now Check the obvious to give them understanding.
Speaker 2:But also have usually people like outside of even black men any serious topic if it's paired with some fun activity or some sort of like I don't know like party or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Then people are usually quite interested in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this has been dope.
Speaker 1:Thank you and to everybody else stay black, Stay black.
Speaker 1:I hope this was a learning experience to adopt and change the way you think and live. The goal is for us and that includes you to be able to see ourselves for who we are, so we can accept the person in the mirror and begin to value ourselves. Whether you agreed, opposed or were offended by some of the content, I encourage you to engage with me so we can have positive discussions and try and understand each other. So send your comments, reviews or feedback to our Instagram, blackfor30, or an email to admin at blackfor30.com. If you believe someone would benefit from this episode, please share it. When you get to the end of this recording, please subscribe to Black for 30 wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for your time and I wish for you to join me again.